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	<title>Comments on: Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We&#8217;re Not There Yet!</title>
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	<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/</link>
	<description>The Participation Company</description>
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		<title>By: Conversations Elsewhere</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4373</link>
		<dc:creator>Conversations Elsewhere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4373</guid>
		<description>[...] On Monday, I jotted down a few thoughts on the Spending Challenge in the UK, which has sparked an interesting discussion about crowdsourcing and public participation (and a lively conversation on Twitter, which warrants its own follow-up post): Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On Monday, I jotted down a few thoughts on the Spending Challenge in the UK, which has sparked an interesting discussion about crowdsourcing and public participation (and a lively conversation on Twitter, which warrants its own follow-up post): Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4359</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4359</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., Christoph Berendes. Christoph Berendes said: To examine an online #participation event: ask &quot;_who_ is deciding _what_?&quot; http://bit.ly/a9rmmd sez @intellitics #gov20 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., Christoph Berendes. Christoph Berendes said: To examine an online #participation event: ask &quot;_who_ is deciding _what_?&quot; <a href="http://bit.ly/a9rmmd" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/a9rmmd</a> sez @intellitics #gov20 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4356</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4356</guid>
		<description>I think what&#039;s sometimes forgotten is the user perspective. Do I want to put up the extra effort to revise ideas, or work on better text with others, or even do some research? Consider the amount of work that would go into improving the quality of ideas in such activities. And then contrast it to the possible impact. It does not add up. Not only do most ideation projects on the web today look (I say &quot;look&quot; because not all of them are) like token participation projects, but also the invidiual user may get the impression that his contribution is too minimal and will drown in the masses. These projects are not like wikipedia, their content is not being constantly improved and then public accessible. These ideation projects are short lived, not very well publicised, hidden, and their impact often negligible. As long as these problems are not mitigated, all this work that is being put into them on the micro level is not worth it. Yes I&#039;m playing devil&#039;s advocate here, but too often we paint a way too rosy picture of all these platforms. I wonder how many decisionmakers always know of these activities that the institutions they belong to are carrying out.... does the 80 year old congress member who has not used email once in his life care about something that was produced on a thing called a website? etc... ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what&#8217;s sometimes forgotten is the user perspective. Do I want to put up the extra effort to revise ideas, or work on better text with others, or even do some research? Consider the amount of work that would go into improving the quality of ideas in such activities. And then contrast it to the possible impact. It does not add up. Not only do most ideation projects on the web today look (I say &#8220;look&#8221; because not all of them are) like token participation projects, but also the invidiual user may get the impression that his contribution is too minimal and will drown in the masses. These projects are not like wikipedia, their content is not being constantly improved and then public accessible. These ideation projects are short lived, not very well publicised, hidden, and their impact often negligible. As long as these problems are not mitigated, all this work that is being put into them on the micro level is not worth it. Yes I&#8217;m playing devil&#8217;s advocate here, but too often we paint a way too rosy picture of all these platforms. I wonder how many decisionmakers always know of these activities that the institutions they belong to are carrying out&#8230;. does the 80 year old congress member who has not used email once in his life care about something that was produced on a thing called a website? etc&#8230; <img src='http://www.intellitics.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4352</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4352</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been looking at this mostly from a public participation standpoint.

Public participation is about sustainable decision making. When I look at projects such as the Spending Challenge, I ask: Is there a decision at stake, first of all? If so, what is the decision? Who is the decision maker? Where in the decision making process are we? What is the timeline? What level of impact will participants have? What are the project objectives and what defines a successful outcome? Etc.

More often than not these questions do not get considered, hardly ever are the answers made explicit (which is a problem to begin with). We can assume, though, that the convener&#039;s core objective is usually to make better decisions. Wether an online consultation is useful depends on how well it achieves that objective.

There may be other aspects of usefulness, but my research is focused on how the tools in combination with the (not always intentionally designed) process can help or hinder good public participation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been looking at this mostly from a public participation standpoint.</p>
<p>Public participation is about sustainable decision making. When I look at projects such as the Spending Challenge, I ask: Is there a decision at stake, first of all? If so, what is the decision? Who is the decision maker? Where in the decision making process are we? What is the timeline? What level of impact will participants have? What are the project objectives and what defines a successful outcome? Etc.</p>
<p>More often than not these questions do not get considered, hardly ever are the answers made explicit (which is a problem to begin with). We can assume, though, that the convener&#8217;s core objective is usually to make better decisions. Wether an online consultation is useful depends on how well it achieves that objective.</p>
<p>There may be other aspects of usefulness, but my research is focused on how the tools in combination with the (not always intentionally designed) process can help or hinder good public participation.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Berendes</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4344</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Berendes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4344</guid>
		<description>Agreed. The online challenges have their shortcomings.

But there are also a disruptive phenomena and I&#039;m wary of being the &quot;they&quot; in Gandhi&#039;s &quot;“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” 

So I&#039;m aggressively open-minded about how online challenges are, currently and flawed as we see them to be, nonetheless useful to their sponsors, and I&#039;m preoccupied about which of the flaws *we* see would be seen by their current and future sponsors as most useful to address.  (E.g. Grandpa tells me that mp3s don&#039;t have the audio range of his CDs, and I don&#039;t care - Coldplay sounds fine to me. Grandpa tells me that DRM-encrypted mp3s could be &quot;repossessed&quot; by a server failure or when I copy my music to a new iPod, and I get that it&#039;s an issue.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed. The online challenges have their shortcomings.</p>
<p>But there are also a disruptive phenomena and I&#8217;m wary of being the &#8220;they&#8221; in Gandhi&#8217;s &#8220;“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” </p>
<p>So I&#8217;m aggressively open-minded about how online challenges are, currently and flawed as we see them to be, nonetheless useful to their sponsors, and I&#8217;m preoccupied about which of the flaws *we* see would be seen by their current and future sponsors as most useful to address.  (E.g. Grandpa tells me that mp3s don&#8217;t have the audio range of his CDs, and I don&#8217;t care &#8211; Coldplay sounds fine to me. Grandpa tells me that DRM-encrypted mp3s could be &#8220;repossessed&#8221; by a server failure or when I copy my music to a new iPod, and I get that it&#8217;s an issue.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4343</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4343</guid>
		<description>Agreed, rating and ranking of policy ideas is doable, and the participants of an online consultation can be part of that evaluation.

However, here&#039;s what usually happens (in no particular order):

* Voting takes place prematurely
* The simple thumbs up or thumbs down voting mechanism provides a very limited form of evaluating idea fragments
* Evaluation criteria are never clearly defined nor agreed upon upfront
* The conversation focuses on (half-baked) positions rather than underlying values and interests
* Lack of demographic information makes it difficult to put participants&#039; collective choices in perspective

At the end of the day the question is: what do the results mean and what can and will the decision maker do about them? Most projects I&#039;ve seen don&#039;t seem to think that part through to the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, rating and ranking of policy ideas is doable, and the participants of an online consultation can be part of that evaluation.</p>
<p>However, here&#8217;s what usually happens (in no particular order):</p>
<p>* Voting takes place prematurely<br />
* The simple thumbs up or thumbs down voting mechanism provides a very limited form of evaluating idea fragments<br />
* Evaluation criteria are never clearly defined nor agreed upon upfront<br />
* The conversation focuses on (half-baked) positions rather than underlying values and interests<br />
* Lack of demographic information makes it difficult to put participants&#8217; collective choices in perspective</p>
<p>At the end of the day the question is: what do the results mean and what can and will the decision maker do about them? Most projects I&#8217;ve seen don&#8217;t seem to think that part through to the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4342</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4342</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., Christoph Berendes. Christoph Berendes said: #crowdsourcing #cooperation:lessons for #gov20 from Netflix http://bit.ly/bigdRN Join the discussion on @intellitics &#039;s blog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., Christoph Berendes. Christoph Berendes said: #crowdsourcing #cooperation:lessons for #gov20 from Netflix <a href="http://bit.ly/bigdRN" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/bigdRN</a> Join the discussion on @intellitics &#39;s blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Berendes</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4340</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Berendes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4340</guid>
		<description>Tim - You&#039;re right about #2 and the early leader bias. Further, the Netflix prize is really an example of &quot;cooperation within competition&quot; rather than cooperation outright (e.g. brainstorm idea piggybacking), since not every team (indeed, in this case, only one team) could win, per the rules.

Re #1 - (a) It&#039;s not inherently impossible to rate policy ideas in a way that&#039;s acceptable to a broad array of people (fiendishly difficult, yes; impossible, no).  The US Congressional Budget Office scores legislation for financial and other impact, so, if we agree to go by their estimates, we could have compared the various health care reform proposals &quot;objectively&quot;.  (Big &quot;if&quot;, of course.)

(b) Cooperation does not require objective rating. If  &quot;winning&quot; ideas must first garner at least 5% of the votes, say, a kind of cooperation and blending of higher scoring ideas might be encouraged. (This is in fact what happens in Congress - factions come together in all sorts of odd groupings to pass legislation.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim &#8211; You&#8217;re right about #2 and the early leader bias. Further, the Netflix prize is really an example of &#8220;cooperation within competition&#8221; rather than cooperation outright (e.g. brainstorm idea piggybacking), since not every team (indeed, in this case, only one team) could win, per the rules.</p>
<p>Re #1 &#8211; (a) It&#8217;s not inherently impossible to rate policy ideas in a way that&#8217;s acceptable to a broad array of people (fiendishly difficult, yes; impossible, no).  The US Congressional Budget Office scores legislation for financial and other impact, so, if we agree to go by their estimates, we could have compared the various health care reform proposals &#8220;objectively&#8221;.  (Big &#8220;if&#8221;, of course.)</p>
<p>(b) Cooperation does not require objective rating. If  &#8220;winning&#8221; ideas must first garner at least 5% of the votes, say, a kind of cooperation and blending of higher scoring ideas might be encouraged. (This is in fact what happens in Congress &#8211; factions come together in all sorts of odd groupings to pass legislation.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4331</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4331</guid>
		<description>@Chris

Thanks for chiming in!

True, the Netflix Prize is widely regarded as one of &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; success stories of corporate crowdsourcing.

However, their objective was the improvement of a mathematical algorithm, not the creation of public policy. Two key differences:

1. The competing teams&#039; algorithms could be compared and ranked applying objective criteria. This is not the case with policy ideas.

2. The leader board may have worked well for Netflix, but looking at previous efforts in the policy arena, exposing the leader board while the voting process is still ongoing always seems to lead to serious bias favoring the early leaders, at least based on what I&#039;ve been able to observe (see http://www.intellitics.com/blog/tag/bias/).

I agree, though, that there are still many options that haven&#039;t been fully explored. More iterative approaches that include the opportunity for merging similar ideas as well as more creative voting models come to mind, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris</p>
<p>Thanks for chiming in!</p>
<p>True, the Netflix Prize is widely regarded as one of <em>the</em> success stories of corporate crowdsourcing.</p>
<p>However, their objective was the improvement of a mathematical algorithm, not the creation of public policy. Two key differences:</p>
<p>1. The competing teams&#8217; algorithms could be compared and ranked applying objective criteria. This is not the case with policy ideas.</p>
<p>2. The leader board may have worked well for Netflix, but looking at previous efforts in the policy arena, exposing the leader board while the voting process is still ongoing always seems to lead to serious bias favoring the early leaders, at least based on what I&#8217;ve been able to observe (see <a href="http://www.intellitics.com/blog/tag/bias/" rel="nofollow">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/tag/bias/</a>).</p>
<p>I agree, though, that there are still many options that haven&#8217;t been fully explored. More iterative approaches that include the opportunity for merging similar ideas as well as more creative voting models come to mind, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Berendes</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4330</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Berendes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 03:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4330</guid>
		<description>Tim - I raised the question of supporting cooperation at a Federal webinar on online challenges last week, and someone pointed to the Netflix challenge. In particular, Netflix used a leaderboard - http://www.netflixprize.com/leaderboard - so that high-scoring teams could find one another. 

It seems to me that an even more important feature of the Netflix Prize  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize - was that teams were competing as much against &quot;the course&quot; - beating the existing algorithm by at least 10% - as against each other. (And indeed the winning team was a combination of three of the originally separate teams.)

So, encourage cooperation by (1) pitting  contestants &quot;against the course&quot;;  (2) making &quot;the course&quot; difficult, so it&#039;s possible that no one wins;  (3) using a leaderboard to highlight leading teams; (4) running the competition long enough that contestants have time to team up; and (5) having a prize worth winning. (Of course, there are other ways to encourage cooperation as well.)

In a simple &quot;vote up ideas&quot; contest, (1) and (2) might be handled by requiring that the winning ideas garner votes from at least, say, 5% of the voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim &#8211; I raised the question of supporting cooperation at a Federal webinar on online challenges last week, and someone pointed to the Netflix challenge. In particular, Netflix used a leaderboard &#8211; <a href="http://www.netflixprize.com/leaderboard" rel="nofollow">http://www.netflixprize.com/leaderboard</a> &#8211; so that high-scoring teams could find one another. </p>
<p>It seems to me that an even more important feature of the Netflix Prize  &#8211; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize</a> &#8211; was that teams were competing as much against &#8220;the course&#8221; &#8211; beating the existing algorithm by at least 10% &#8211; as against each other. (And indeed the winning team was a combination of three of the originally separate teams.)</p>
<p>So, encourage cooperation by (1) pitting  contestants &#8220;against the course&#8221;;  (2) making &#8220;the course&#8221; difficult, so it&#8217;s possible that no one wins;  (3) using a leaderboard to highlight leading teams; (4) running the competition long enough that contestants have time to team up; and (5) having a prize worth winning. (Of course, there are other ways to encourage cooperation as well.)</p>
<p>In a simple &#8220;vote up ideas&#8221; contest, (1) and (2) might be handled by requiring that the winning ideas garner votes from at least, say, 5% of the voters.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.intellitics.com/blog/2010/07/19/brainstorming-policy-ideas-online-were-not-there-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-4317</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet! -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intellitics.com/blog/?p=985#comment-4317</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., eDemocracy. eDemocracy said: [Global] Intellitics » Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet!: Doing a bit of research on Spend... http://bit.ly/9xHpjj [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Intellitics, Inc., eDemocracy. eDemocracy said: [Global] Intellitics » Brainstorming Policy Ideas Online: We’re Not There Yet!: Doing a bit of research on Spend&#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/9xHpjj" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/9xHpjj</a> [...]</p>
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